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stive
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21-Jul-02, 09:51 AM (PST)
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"Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
 
   Lets be honest about it, BDSM in all its forms ultimately is about sexual stimulation. Whether its pain or fetish, the stimulation, although mental, is still sexual! Why do pro-doms try to deny this?

In addition, most scenes involve some breif genital contact of some sort. Why not just finish the job and stop being such prudes about it!

Seriously, strapping on a dildo and fucking some guy in the ass, fingering his butt, or providing an enema is a lot more "physical" and IMHO gross (for them), than just giving a hand job, isnt it? So why don't pro-doms just do it and stop pretending that its beneath them? Or is this a female supremist attitude?!

Please, this is not a legal discussion...

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Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex? [View All], stive, 09:51 AM, 21-Jul-02, (0)  
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MrLemon MrLemon rating
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21-Jul-02, 11:12 AM (PST)
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1. "RE: Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
In response to message.0
 
   >Lets be honest about it, BDSM
>in all its forms ultimately
>is about sexual stimulation.
>Whether its pain or fetish,
>the stimulation, although mental, is
>still sexual! Why do
>pro-doms try to deny this?
>
>
>In addition, most scenes involve some
>breif genital contact of some
>sort. Why not just
>finish the job and stop
>being such prudes about it!
>
>
>Seriously, strapping on a dildo and
>fucking some guy in the
>ass, fingering his butt, or
>providing an enema is a
>lot more "physical" and IMHO
>gross (for them), than just
>giving a hand job, isnt
>it? So why don't
>pro-doms just do it and
>stop pretending that its beneath
>them? Or is this
>a female supremist attitude?!
>
>Please, this is not a legal
>discussion...

Oh, not this topic again!

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MzAlyssa
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21-Jul-02, 11:20 AM (PST)
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2. "I second Mr. Lemon's message!"
In response to message.1
 
LAST EDITED ON 21-Jul-02 AT 11:24 AM (PDT)

See past threads on the topic. Or post the question at www.maxfisch.com. And contact Mistress Enjolie, who DOES do the kind of session you want.

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AnonMon AnonMon rating
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1574 posts, 6 feedbacks, 12 points
21-Jul-02, 02:29 PM (PST)
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3. "RE: Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
In response to message.0
 
   Here's an archived thread about this subject, that was pretty complete:

http://forum.myredbook.com/cgi-bin/dcforum2/dcboard.pl?az=show_thread&om=1019&forum=DCForumID9&archive=yes

My assessment:

1) Yes, too many sex-negative dommes have ruined BDSM in the United States. I prefer BDSM in Europe (especially UK and Germany), where it is practiced in a much more integrative fashion and combined with full service and BBBJ. I find the domme's in Europe to be much more sophisticated, sensual and less finicky about sperm.

2) I believe that RB members should start classifying BDSM experiences with code words like FSBDSM, BBHJBDSM, SSBDSM, NSBDSM (full service, condomless handjob, self service, or no sex). Through a body of such reviews, subs can find exactly the kind of mistress and service they're looking for. Some dommes in SF are borderline ROBs.

3) I think that most RB members would agree that pro-domination IS prostitution, but that many pro-dommes simply can't handle the hit on their self-esteem caused by realizing that they ARE prostitutes. It works against the "persona" that they've created of being in control. High time they "got over it", I say.

So Stive, focus on the better domme's. I've never done Atria, but she's supposed to be sex positive. If you do her, please let us know how it went. Also, I did have a romping good time with Ilsa Strix in LA, who isn't queasy about getting sexual. She does this amazing thing with her lubricated foot, and also, one of the best strap-on experts in the US. Took me to heaven.

Anon

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justjoe justjoe rating
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21-Jul-02, 03:28 PM (PST)
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6. "Some dommes in SF are borderline ROBs?"
In response to message.3
 
LAST EDITED ON 21-Jul-02 AT 03:30 PM (PDT)

Ouch. Let's be a bit nicer to the ladies, shall we?

Anyway, reading your post got me thinking, and I wholeheartedly agree with what you say about the trend away from sex-inclusive SM over the last twenty years. But I think there is a "relative frame of reference" thing happening. What you may consider to be ROB behavior, is actually just a different sexual subculture's way of viewing the world. The domme who refuses to be truly sexual, according to your definition, is simply selling a certain service - non-sexual BDSM. She only becomes a ROB if she mis-advertises. And certainly, you must agree that most domme's do not mis-advertise, when they state on their web-pages, "Absolutely NO SEX."

So let's not accuse them of being ROBs. Cold, sexless, lesbian man-haters... maybe. But ROBs? Nah.

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justjoe justjoe rating
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21-Jul-02, 03:31 PM (PST)
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7. "The last sentence was a joke..."
In response to message.6
 
Cold, sexless, lesbian man-haters... maybe. But ROBs? Nah.

I know that many domme's do enjoy sex, with their boyfriends. I was just kidding, okay?

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phoenicia phoenicia rating
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21-Jul-02, 02:50 PM (PST)
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4. "RE: Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
In response to message.0
 
   Because many of us don't want to do sex. I don't think it's sex-negative to decide what you are comfortable doing in a professional setting and then entering into a phase of the industry where you can be comfortable, and where the rules are well-defined. I am not sex-negative. I love sex (as I'm sure most of my past partners would attest to). However, I like to save that part of me for my lovers, or for special friends who I choose to be sexual with in my personal life. I feel that if I had sex professionally day-after-day, it would interfere with my interest in doing it in my personal life. As it is, sometimes, when I've been doing a lot of BDSM sessions (esp. sub sessions), I sometimes am not really in the mood to do BDSM in my personal life. I wouldn't want to start hating sex just because I'd had too many unpleasant experiences having sex with clients. Sex is a very personal, intimate thing for me, especially now, as I get older.
Anyway, as Mz Alyssa says, there are doms and subs who also incorporate sex into their sessions. IMHO, you should contact them and stop worrying so much about those of us who explicitly state that we don't do sex.

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stive
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21-Jul-02, 03:28 PM (PST)
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5. "Ok, then please explain..."
In response to message.4
 
   Why is it non-sexual to YOU to strap on a rubber dildo and fuck some guy in the ass? Non-sexual enemas, fingering, etc...To me, this is every bit as "intimate" as if you gave a HJ (but of course, less satisfying). Its not that you're deriving any physical stimulation from the activity. If you're willing to deficate on someone, sufficate them with your ass, tie up their cock & balls and whip them until they turn blue but not simply jerk them off afterward...well, it seems hypocritical. Is it because its on YOUR terms, not ours?

And BTW, the reason I dont just patronize BDSM "providers" is because there arent any in the Bay Area!!! Ok, maybe one in San Jose and one in Sacramento--not exactly a large selection! The vast majority of pro doms in Norcal have joined the club of "I will do anything to a sub, anything, but direct sexual activity." I beleive that this rule was created for legal reasons, and nothing more. If you dont do anything directly sexual, then BDSM can thrive without fear of LE. I think I just answered my own question.

PS- I completely agree with Anon.

PPS - Phoenicia, if doing BDSM is something you enjoy, but paying clients ruin it for you, then why do you continue to do it? You make this exact arguement for sex...

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AnonMon AnonMon rating
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21-Jul-02, 03:41 PM (PST)
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8. "Stive, save your breath"
In response to message.5
 
   Hey Stivorino, you're right you know. Fucking a guy in the ass with a strap-on, teasing a cock during CBT, making a guy rim her... this is NOT sex? These sex-negative dommes are simply in denial. But nothing you say will ever get them to see that they've simply created a barrier of esteem within their own minds.

I think that sex-inclusive dommes like Atria are being much more honest, and are directly facing the crisis of self-esteem that prostitution inevitably brings.

Ya know, I once met this provider who used to be a domme, and told me that one day, she realized that she was actually whoring when doing a no-sex session, and then began to do escorting and FS because it was more "honest". She said that she felt a kind of relief when she saw that, and explained that the BDSM work was slowly eating away at her subconscious self-esteem. When she embraced her sexual, submissive side, she found that it brought her a sense of completeness. Therefore, I think that many domme's who think that pegging a guy is NOT sex, will inevitably wake up one day and smell the semen.

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persistent persistent rating
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21-Jul-02, 04:01 PM (PST)
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9. "Other options"
In response to message.8
 
   I think I am in somewhat agreement (though definitely not total) with the spirit of Stive's post, though not the irritated tone. I almost have to stand back and admire what's gone on here: the pro dommes get 1/2 the rate of full-service providers without providing any explicit sex; as such they get to keep legal status, or at worst, sit out in a gray area; and they actually have many customers repeating the "BDSM is not sex" line!

I don't go to pro dommes that often specifically because of this reason. I think the pros tightly shrink their market because of this, but probably end up with a more dedicated clientele. In all, I can see how it suits them, I'm just shocked there's been such unity for so long. In short, more power to them, though I wish things weren't this way.

Question for you guys: have you tried checking out other areas to find women who will engage in more explicit contact (even if just HJ, say), but aren't necessarily pro dommes? AMPs, FBSM, tantra, and strip clubs are all discussed elsewhere on redbook ad nauseum. In my limited experience, it's not difficult to find women in those occupations willing to do BDSM. It *is* difficult to find women who are experienced (even in their private lives, much less anywhere near the experience of a pro). But unless you're really hardcore and need a hardcore domme, it can be fun teaching a willing sex worker about BDSM, and the newness can to some extent make up for the lack of experience.

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phoenicia phoenicia rating
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21-Jul-02, 04:33 PM (PST)
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11. "RE: Stive, save your breath"
In response to message.8
 
   I am being honest. Our place we work explicitly spell out what is and isn't allowed, and our clients are people who are willing to follow those guidelines. Where is the dishonesty? I know what I will and will not do. I know what I am comfortable with, and so does the client. This is a different subculture. We do have different rules. And it seems to me that you know the rules. You just don't like 'em. Go see an escort who also does BDSM. They're out there. And stop whining about us when we honestly tell you what the frigging rules are!

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phoenicia phoenicia rating
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21-Jul-02, 04:23 PM (PST)
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10. "RE: Ok, then please explain..."
In response to message.5
 
   It doesn't ruin it for me. It's just that some weeks, when I've maybe seen a few difficult clients, or whatever, I sometimes am not up to playing in my personal life. No, I still love BDSM, and I still love sex. I do strap-on because I enjoy it, and I do toy shows as a sub, because I enjoy them. The house I work at doesn't allow hj's so that is pretty much a moot point. As far as the rest of sex goes, I really think if I was getting fucked up down and sideways and having to give head to strangers, I would probably start hating men and hating sex. It's too personal, for me anyway. I would start to really feel used. But that is just me. I don't put down anyone else's feelings on this, or anyone else's practices, as you seem to feel you need to put down mine. And again, in case I'm confusing you, doing BDSM for a living does not "ruin" it for me, I just have my stressful weeks. I'm sure anyone on any job experiences occasional burnout. I'm no different. I'm not super-dom, or super-sub, I'm just me. Why do I continue to do it? Because usually, its a lot of fun, and I'm meeting a lot of great people. I was afraid people would see what I said the way you did. People don't like to hear about a sex worker's truth, I guess.

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BigWilly BigWilly rating
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21-Jul-02, 11:26 PM (PST)
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12. "RE: Ok, then please explain..."
In response to message.10
 
   Everyone is making some very good points here, on this all-too-often discussed topic, even if somewhat abrasive. So, I'll throw in my two cents.

I can't speak for the mistresses, but what I've observed is that they actually aren't turned off by sex in general. I think the number one reason most BDSM providers in the Bay Area don't do extras is because of LE. Busts do happen. Why risk it?

I would say that another reason, probably equally important, is that they don't want to do sex for money for personal reasons. I can't speak for women since I'm not one of them, but I've known enough women to say that sex is an extremely personal thing for them. It's not like us guys who just want to stick our wanger into any wet and willing hole. I've had many women tell me things like "If you don't love your man, you can't spread your legs for him." Women also want to "save something special" for the man/women they love. If they're givin up full service to any Tom, Dick or Harry who can afford a few hundred dollars, it would tremendously devaluate the experience with the person they're in a relationship with.

I would say that yet another reason most BDSM providers in the Bay Area don't do extras is for health reasons. I don't think it's possible to really do 100% safe sex. Condoms aren't foolproof and there are other ways to get an STD that don't don't involve condoms. Many providers are in relationships and don't want to "bring something home" from work and give it to their partner.

Non-extras BDSM providers are a bit like strippers - what they do is sexual, but not sex. Thus, the ones that have partners are more likely to be able to do it without making their partner insanely jealous, although this doesn't always work for strippers.

And I won't even get into the MORAL issues involving sex for money, although I would tend to agree that even non-extras BDSM providers are in bit of gray area when they do things like strap-on play, cock-and-ball torture, ass worship, etc. However, I don't think the BDSM providers are semen squemish; I've had someone from Fanatasy Makers tell me that they wish hand jobs weren't illegal...

That said, a PL can't still get what he needs if he knows where to look. It would be a total waste of time to try to convince a no-sex BDSM provider to do extras. You're just gonna piss her off by asking. So, here's a few options:

0) Find a BDSM provider who allows extras. Admittedly this is a bit hard since they don't want to advertise anything illegal, but this board should help somewhat.

1) Find a full-service escort who is willing to learn the ropes (pun intended) of BDSM. This can be especially fun since she'll be fresh about the whole thing.

2) Go to a brothel in Nevada. They do have both sex and various BDSM activities in their menu.

3) Go to a brothel in Europe. Culturally, I think prostitution is less of a taboo there than here as there are more places where it is legal, or pretty close to legal. So, more women can do prostittution there with there being less stigma attached to it, and thus the women are less likely to lose self-esteem over sex for money.

4) Get a girlfriend (what a concept), and teach her the ropes.

5) Go to swingers clubs and BDSM clubs like the Power Exchange. The main difficulty here is that you have to be invited to play, and if no one wants to play with you, you're shit out of luck. But you never know what scenes you can get involved in just by being an innocent bystander.

6) Hire a full-service escort to go with you to a non-extras BDSM provider. If you're there as a couple, a lot of BDSM providers will allow sex between yourself and your partner. You don't even have to tell the provider that you're paying for your partner. The BDSM provider can do things like spank you while you're banging your ho.

Hope this helps.

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MzAlyssa
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22-Jul-02, 06:40 AM (PST)
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15. "damage control"
In response to message.12
 
LAST EDITED ON 22-Jul-02 AT 06:44 AM (PDT)

LAST EDITED ON 22-Jul-02 AT 06:42 AM (PDT)

*As a preface, I want to thank BigWilly for the advice posted previously regarding other options for BDSM.
Okay, I have to step in on this. BigWilly posted that a domme at Fantasymakers said she wished handjobs weren't illegal. I'm sure someone did say that, as I know he usually is truthful, but this is not in the least standard Fantasymakers behavior and I really hope this does not result in us being thought of us a facility for hj, bj or fs. Yes, it is a strange gray area with strap-on anal and enemas (for the record, there is no rimming and cock and ball torture does NOT mean fondling the penis under the guise of domination) and I happen to like doing the anal stuff quite a bit. However, I do not want to jerk anyone off; I am not into that in the least. I don't consider human bodies repulsive or anything and some of them can look quite lovely unclothed, but I am not at all interested in fondling someone's penis to orgasm. If I were to work escort or what have you, it would be so faked that nobody would be having a good time. The clients who come to me heartily enjoy anal play, psychodrama, etc. Some of them have asked after sessions why I do not take it further and do sex and we have discussed my reasons for it. Some do not come back because of this. Yes, I could have a much larger client base if I'd do extras. Yes, I could earn much more if I did extras. I have friends who do escort who earn a tremendous amount of money. But I'm not into it. I am well aware of what exactly this job is (referring to my job) and what is going on. I have never deluded myself on that account. This is why I have never referred to anal play as "prostate massage" except over the phone. Anal penetration with fingers is what it is. The power dynamic is a factor, but anal play is anal play.
It has nothing to do with getting busted, at least for me. Even if Fantasymakers rules stated "Sure, come on in and grab some cock! Hungry? Suck some cock! Thirsty? Guzzle down some cum there, lil' pardner! And don't forget to take some cock home with you in a tupperware container!" I would probably head for the vanilla coke anyway.
Some escorts won't domme. Some dommes won't escort. Some strippers will escort but won't domme. Some dommes will strip and escort at work but not at the other work. Some strippers domme onstage but not in private. Some strippers will domme with an escort but only every other Thursday.
You need to find the right equation. Keep looking and you will. I nominate Mistress Enjolie, but I know there are a few others - there was Leila and I know Bettina has been doing some sub work. Anyone with questions may inbox me privately.
- Mistress Alyssa

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Falstaff
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22-Jul-02, 04:59 PM (PST)
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21. "RE: damage control"
In response to message.15
 
   MsAlyssa,

He said she "wished" she could do more. He never said she offered it or even implied that she would give it. Why does that need damage control? Is it because you are afraid that the idea may get out that some doms would like to do more? And that would lead to more pressure to cross that invisible line?

The issue is one that has popped up before. And it will come up again. It is part of the conflict in this area of the "sex" industry as it is practiced in the US, or at least this part of the US.

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MzAlyssa
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1274 posts
22-Jul-02, 08:31 AM (PST)
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18. "RE: Ok, then please explain..."
In response to message.5
 
>Why is it non-sexual to YOU
>to strap on a rubber
>dildo and fuck some guy
>in the ass? Non-sexual
>enemas, fingering, etc...To me, this
>is every bit as "intimate"
>as if you gave a
>HJ (but of course, less
>satisfying).

You just said it yourself - "to me, this is..." We all have different boundaries. Yours are different than hers.

Its not that
>you're deriving any physical stimulation
>from the activity.

Some people get very turned on by watching their partner's reaction when they get fucked in the ass. I know many heterosexual couples who regularly engage in male-getting-fucked-by-female sex and enjoy it tremendously.

If
>you're willing to deficate on
>someone, sufficate them with your
>ass, tie up their cock
>& balls and whip them
>until they turn blue but
>not simply jerk them off
>afterward...well, it seems hypocritical.
>Is it because its on
>YOUR terms, not ours?

It is on both of your terms. If you do not like a dominant's terms, do not do the session. If someone is going to work as a sexworker and do things they are not comfortable with simply to earn money, damage may be done to their psyche. Who wants to be a victim? Most people I know would rather do what they enjoy and have fun doing it. Once again, everyone's boundaries are different.

>And BTW, the reason I dont
>just patronize BDSM "providers" is
>because there arent any in
>the Bay Area!!! Ok,
>maybe one in San Jose
>and one in Sacramento--not exactly
>a large selection!

There are others.

The
>vast majority of pro doms
>in Norcal have joined the
>club of "I will do
>anything to a sub, anything,
>but direct sexual activity."
>I beleive that this rule
>was created for legal reasons,
>and nothing more.

Nope.


>PPS - Phoenicia, if doing BDSM
>is something you enjoy, but
>paying clients ruin it for
>you, then why do you
>continue to do it?
>You make this exact arguement
>for sex...

She does BDSM differently in session than with a lover.

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AnonMon AnonMon rating
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22-Jul-02, 00:25 AM (PST)
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13. "Redbook is about Prostitution"
In response to message.0
 
   If pro-domination isn't prostitution, then those sex-negative domme's shouldn't post here. Maxfisch or some newsgroup would be a more appropriate venue. This site is about prostitution, right?

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MzAlyssa
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22-Jul-02, 06:50 AM (PST)
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16. "RE: Redbook is about Prostitution"
In response to message.13
 
>If pro-domination isn't prostitution, then those
>sex-negative domme's shouldn't post here.
>Maxfisch or some newsgroup would
>be a more appropriate venue.
>This site is about prostitution,
>right?

This site is mostly about prostitution, but the domination section, at least since I've been here, has discussed all types of domination. Some people who normally frequent escorts get curious about domination (besides being curious about why we do not do extras).
This thread is making me giggle so much this morning. I think it's because it's so early and I've been sitting at a keyboard at 6:54 am typing about the act of "fondling someone's penis." It's starting to sound like "Where a baby comes from": You see, Billy, when people lust after each other very much...


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OriginalDoc
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22-Jul-02, 00:38 AM (PST)
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14. "To keep it legal"
In response to message.0
 
   Many pro dommes don't offer sex in order to keep their services legal. If they tie you up, whip you, pee on you, dress you up, engage in verbal roleplay, etc., and you get yourself off, it's not prostitution according to the law.

On the other hand if they stick a dildo up your butt, that counts as penetration and it is considered an act of prostitution. I'll bet a lot of pro dommes don't realize that.

Then again a few weeks ago I had my annual physical and I paid the doctor to stick his finger up my butt and play with my prostate. Just goes to show that the law is not always consistent on these matters.

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MzAlyssa
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1274 posts
22-Jul-02, 07:01 AM (PST)
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17. "the law on prostitution"
In response to message.14
 

>On the other hand if they
>stick a dildo up your
>butt, that counts as penetration
>and it is considered an
>act of prostitution. I'll
>bet a lot of pro
>dommes don't realize that.

This is how the law was explained to me, but I could be wrong. Supposedly, the act is classified as prostitution when one person stimulates another in a direct manner to get them off. A strap-on is okay because it is not a human body part and fingers are okay because it is up the anus and not directly on the penis (prostate apparently does not figure into this). A handjob is not okay because, of course, it directly stimulates the penis.
The other way around is strange too. Supposedly, it counts as woman to woman sex if I were to stimulate the clitoris of a female client. So I could give her a vaginal exam if it were a medical scene, stick a toy up there, even fist her- but if I touched her clit, it would be sex. I saw a female domme once as a client, way back before I got into doing this myself, because I wanted to see what this was like from the other side before I worked in that arena. She gave me a vibrator to hold against my clit while she did a vaginal exam (this WAS a medical scene, but I'm sure it could have been worked in otherwise), so perhaps they had the same rule.

>Then again a few weeks ago
>I had my annual physical
>and I paid the doctor
>to stick his finger up
>my butt and play with
>my prostate. Just goes
>to show that the law
>is not always consistent on
>these matters.

But did he give you a safeword?


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BigBill BigBill rating
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22-Jul-02, 01:06 PM (PST)
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19. "RE: Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
In response to message.0
 
   Some woman are looking for a way to make good money. The sex biz has high demand and does not require education or hard work. Very lucrative, however there is the legal/moral/emotional issues that keep many away.

However, some found that by doing BDSM they could avoid those issues for themselves while still being very successful. The downside is that demand is not as high, so fees are high but generally lower than sexual services. One must have fetish outfits and toys and probably a space to play. Most importantly, they need to be intelligent and able to choreograph a scene, which requires focus and attention to detail. They have to be able to get into the proper head space, read the subs reactions and understand the safety issues involved. Finally, one has to have some predisposition to BDSM to be a decent Mistress. I've asked some providers I've had a good relationship with to do a bdsm scene with me and they just can't do it.

It takes far more mental and physical effort to run a domination session than to have sex. So those woman who are willing to have sex for money aren't able or don't want to go to the effort of being a Mistress. Those who choose to be a pro-domme generally choose not to include sex because they want to avoid the legal/moral/emotional issues. The rare ones that combine the two can pretty much get whatever they want for it, which makes them exclusive by whatever criteria they want to use (price, discretion, chemistry).

If I were a woman, I'd be a pro-domme in a minute. Would I include sex? Couldn't say - I can't imagine having a problem with a hand job (except legal), but I don't know beyond that. I know I would have a good time and find those that met my needs. Getting paid to have someone worship and serve you while you train them to do it more and better - sounds like a dream job to me.

As far as those who criticize the No Sex BDSM providers, I don't understand why you are complaining. As long as they are very clear in the ad that it is no sex, there is no issue. It's like going to KFC and complaining that they don't serve broiled chicken because that's what you like best. They put out the menu and you can patronize or not - no point to lecturing them on how to run there business.

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AnonMon AnonMon rating
Charter Member
1574 posts, 6 feedbacks, 12 points
22-Jul-02, 01:55 PM (PST)
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20. "RE: Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
In response to message.19
 
   >As far as those who criticize the No Sex BDSM providers, I don't understand why you are complaining.

Ah, a very important distinction needs to be made.

I think you have to realize that we're not complaining, or asking domme's like MzAlyzza to include sex in their repetoire. We're lamenting the death of sexuality in BDSM, which USED TO BE COMMON ten to twenty years ago.

It's sort of like lamenting the passing of the Lily Theatre in the South Bay, which used to allow sex with customers for free on stage. It isn't for everyone, but can't we lament the passing of such a terrificly sordid venue for hot public sex? Don't you agree that if MBOT and MSC suddenly stopped all extras, and the cops began to enforce a new era of no-extras and anti-prostitution in strip clubs, that it would be something to lament?

This is all we're saying - we lament the loss of fully sexual BDSM, just as a strip club patron would wistfully think back to the days of $1 lap dances at MBOT with fully nude girls, willing to be fingered to orgasm and return the favor with a lap dance to completion for $5. My simple point is this: "more sex is better, less sex is worse." Domme's who defend their position of sex-negativity should see that they've basically sold out a little bit to the moral majority, helping to build a less sexually open world in their own small way.

Therefore, I don't complain that many SF domme's have shy'ed away from including more sex in the menu. I'll just go to domme's that do provide fully integrative sessions, even if they can only be found in more liberal society, like Europe. I think that many of you readers don't realize just how conservative the US of A is getting. In France, the President can openly consort with a mistress. In America, getting a blow job on the side is grounds for impeachment and even statues are getting draped to keep us from seeing a bare breast. A new Victorianism has emerged, thanks to the Moral Majority, and it must be fought on all fronts.

I believe that RB should set up a BDSM review area inside, and allow members to post reviews with accurate assessments of sexual services, using terms like FSBDSM, BBHJBDSM, SSBDSM, NSBDSM (full service, condomless handjob, self service, or no sex). Through a body of such reviews, the more fun domme's will succeed financially and the more sexually stingy ones will eventually die out. Like ROBs at MSC. Knowledge is power.

Again, my point is the more sex, open sex, hot sex, is better. I am not diss'ing no sex girls like MzAlyssa, I am celebrating the wisdom, liberalness and openness of sex-positive BDSM providers like Atria.

Anon

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phoenicia phoenicia rating
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511 posts, 3 feedbacks, 6 points
22-Jul-02, 06:23 PM (PST)
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22. "RE: Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
In response to message.0
 
   ...and as the debate rages on at Redbook, Lady Shannon's and Mz. Alyssa's clients continue to come to see them, have a wonderful time and leave with smiles on their faces....

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AnonMon AnonMon rating
Charter Member
1574 posts, 6 feedbacks, 12 points
22-Jul-02, 08:07 PM (PST)
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23. "Yeah, yeah"
In response to message.22
 
   LAST EDITED ON 22-Jul-02 AT 08:08 PM (PDT)

Instead of asking why so many SF mistresses are anti-sex, we should deconstruct why so many Redbook members are pro-sex.

If a typical RB guy went to get a FBSM, and got a TERRIFIC CMT massage, followed by a little prostate rub and CB tease, and then the masseuse said, "Sorry, no sex" and let the guy jerk himself off, well, can't you see that this fellow would be happier if he got a handjob or blowjob? Even if she advertised as a "tease but no release" practitioner, she'd get some negative flack, right? Well, I believe that the guys who prefer sexual denial to the ones who prefer a good release at the end of a session of whatever, are in the minority. The overwhelming majority of guys seeing Shannon or Alyssa would be happier with the handjob or blowjob. They just don't know any better, and are brainwashed by the BDSM moral majority. That's all we're saying here. Redbookers are pro-sex, because sex is revolutionary.

All we are saying, is give sex a chance...

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Falstaff
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2302 posts
22-Jul-02, 08:35 PM (PST)
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24. "RE: Why are Mistresses so Anti-Sex?"
In response to message.22
 
   That is quite possibly true phoenicia but it is
a) unprovable and
b) not necessarily relevant.
Unless you asked them which they would prefer and they answered honestly. Which they may not feel comfortable in doing. When all I can get is dom lite I will do that (but still wish for dom regular).

BTW, I have no special complaints against Ms Alyssa or you. I am glad you are answering with your opinions. I just think there is another option. But I realize this has been argued before and will be again.

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MzAlyssa
Charter Member
1274 posts
22-Jul-02, 10:59 PM (PST)
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25. "Jerry's Final Thought"
In response to message.0
 
And in conclusion...

"Sodomy" (special arrangement: not found on sheet music)

Sodomy... G
Fellatio... D
Cunnilingus... Em
Pederasty. A

Father, why do these words sound so nasty? C D7

Masturbation G
can be fun D Em/D
Join the holy orgy Em
Kama Sutra C
Everyone!! G C G


"Easy To Be Hard"

How can people be so heartless Fmaj7 D7
How can people be so cruel Fmaj7 D7
Easy To Be Hard; Easy to be cold G Am; D7 G Am-D7

Oh, how can people have no feelings Fmaj7 D7
How can they ignore their friends Fmaj7 D7
Easy to be proud; Easy to say no G Am; D7 G Am-D7

And especially people who care about strangers C Gm C Gm
Who care about evil and social injustice C Gm C Gm
Do you only care about the bleeding crowd? Am D7 Am D7
How about a needing friend? Am D7 G
I need a friend... Fmaj7 D7

How can people be so heartless Fmaj7 D7
You know I'm hung up on you Fmaj7 D7
Easy to give in; Easy to help out G Am; D7 G Am-D7

Oh, and especially people who care about strangers C Gm C Gm
Who care about evil and social injustice C Gm C Gm
Do you only care about the bleeding crowd? Am D7 Am D7
How about a needing friend? Am D7 G
I need a friend... Fmaj7 D7

How can people have no feelings Fmaj7 D7
How can they ignore their friends Fmaj7 D7
Easy to be hard; Easy to be cold G Am; D7 G Am-D7
Easy to be proud; G Am
Easy to say no. D7 Am7 G

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