Hopefully you already know this, but the lyrics are from the musical "Hair." It is a funny parody, especially imagining it sung forlornly by a restrained submissive!
ps - I just did a dramatic reading of it. I love it! May I put it in the Fantasymakers zine I am putting out for Folsom Street Fair?

*As a preface, I want to thank BigWilly for the advice posted previously regarding other options for BDSM.

"Okay, I have to step in on this. BigWilly posted that a domme at Fantasymakers said she wished handjobs weren't illegal. I'm sure someone did say that, as I know he usually is truthful, but this is not in the least standard Fantasymakers behavior and I really hope this does not result in us being thought of us a facility for hj, bj or fs."

MzAlyssa - Kind of disappointed to see a response such as above to come from you. You misinterpreted what I was saying. There's nothing to really "step in on" here, although it seems my post may have pushed your buttons somewhat.

You're quite correct in that I "usually" tell the truth, except when I'm under oath of course. I have a similar complement for you too - you "usually" tell the truth too, except for those bad hair days, of course.

I never said that a fellow pro domme made the comment about hand jobs. That comment actually came from your own house mom, Lorette (spelling?). I didn't save the email she sent to my private inbox, but I got it when the discussion came up on a similar topic - why some pro domme houses insisted that their pathetic loser customers wear a condom, even when the PL gave a handjob to themselves. Yes, she really did say that and I'm not lying. The funny thing is that I actually didn't even mean it in any kind of negative way and am suprised you took it that way.

I did not say, or implied, that I was propositioned by anyone at Fantasy Makers for an HJ or that it would be likely that such extras were occuring there. I have no idea why you think that statement would lower the perceived standards of Fantasy Makers. Indeed, that statement meant to me that the main reason HJs DON'T occur at FM is because they're illegal. It shows that FM is respecting legal boundaries, even if they get pressured to do more. To us men, that is totally understandable. No point in backtracking on something that doesn't need backtracking. I don't consider that someone doing an HJ as part of a BDSM session makes them a "whore", if its the label you're trying to avoid.

If they were legal, I imagine that HJs might be on a pro domme's menu just like other contact activities, such as strap-on play, golden showers, CBT, etc. Every domme has a choice/ final say of what she provides regardless of the legal status.

I actually mentioned the thing about HJs as a positive thing to show that pro dommes/house moms are not necessrily sex-negative or squemish about semen. However, your recent posts are starting to show that you are a bit sex-negative/sperm squemish, even if not all your "sisters" or "mothers" feel the same way you do.

BigWilly - I will fully admit having misinterpreted it (even to persistent's "me too!" post after yours) and incidentally, the Jewfro has no good hair days. Mildly controllable, yes, but not often good hair days. At any rate, yes, I do get sensitive on the topic. I actually spoke with Lorrett about it right after it was posted and she has always said that anyway. We all know her viewpoint. I had thought you were talking about a certain incident in the past year that caused some negative publicity for us and I was worried it would get stirred up again. I usually try not to jump the gun, as it may be on this board, but it jarred me a bit.
Lorrett and I talk quite a lot about that subject and have since I got there. She wishes the house could go in a certain direction and I like other directions for it. She'd like a larger grey area and I'd like a larger medical room with more shiny silver scalpels and a hard-copied DSM IV to use in lieu of a paddle. We live with that and co-exist in this house. If we attempted to convert the other to our point of view, we'd kill each other, most likely by debating to death.

To others: Are you looking for me or whoever else to affirm that yes, you have a valid point of view? Then yes, you do. All points of view are valid. I'm actually tired of arguing on the subject. I was tired of arguing about the subject in Israel and am tired of it now. "Then why did you jump in?" Um..'cause I don't know when to quit arguing? I think I'm done now. I just had an amazing session with some kick-ass psychodrama.
Sex negative? Come see one of my G/G shows sometime. And I like men as well. But I'm more psychologically oriented in session. I get off on certain things and do find some clients attractive, but it's maybe one-third sexual and two-thirds transformational for me. As they say in Israel, zeh ma yesh.
Xeper,
Mz Alyssa

Sure, please feel free to use it in your zine, but please provide creative attribution to justjoe at joejust@hotmail.com.

-

I was trying to add a bit of humor to a somewhat emotional debate. Glad it cheered you up. That's what we're about right? Having fun, even if it's painful.

-

I found a really interesting article online about a domme who was arrested for BDSM work, and is trying to fight it in the courts, based on the definition of sex:

http://www.leatherquest.com/News/selling.htm

Throughout the long legal process since getting busted, the domme has insisted the service she sells involves helping men express their
feminine side, not sex. She was eventually fined $2,050 for running a house of prostitution. Her lawyer argued before an appeals court that though sexual arousal occurred in her profession, it fell far short of prostitution, adding that the court that convicted her had failed to determine what constitutes a sexual service and was "overwhelmed" by a case that was "graphic and quite frankly disgusting at times."

It seemed like a Clintonian argument to me, but whatever works is good.

-

Whistle wrote:
"I suspect the greatest reason (not the only reason) pro dommes avoid "sexual" contact is to avoid legal problems..."

You know, when domme's complain about the risks involved in prostitution (credit denial, discrimination, impact on child custody) as the reason they refuse to do handjobs, I simply feel great respect for REAL prostitutes who are willing to accept that risk, and put themselves in harm's way, to comfort and support us horny guys out here in the cold. So, to all you women willing to risk in order to sexually service me, THANK YOU!!!

On a more serious note, you know what kind of risks SUBS have to accept when playing with Domme's? Consider the case of Michael Lord, who went to see Boston based dominatrix Barbara Asher. She ties him up and gags him, and he dies. So what does she do? She and her boyfriend cut the guy up with a hacksaw and dispose of him in garbage bags. They hide the body so well, she's never convicted, and in fact, is back in business! See:

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/bostonherald

-

I think that prostitution should be legalized, not only to make it safer for all of us hobbyists, but for women of Chinese descent that are being held captive and forced into prostitution in the US. The BBC reported that several thousand Chinese women have been smuggled into the US, and then a $40,000 debt is held over them as a form of debt bondage. At least what most of us do for fun is consensual. This bondage is not fun in the slightest.

So the power imbalance is not one-sided. Or it is one-sided but which side holds the power switches.

I think we have covered about all there is to cover on this. And for what it is worth, I am the one who suggested to ANON that many doms may not want to go beyond the current boundaries because they would be afraid that other doms may react against them. It is a fairly samll lifestyle group and, as such, the overall norms of the group can heavily influence the behavior of individual members more than if it was a large group. That is mainly what I was getting at, not that the Dom Mafia was going to pay anyone a visit.

persistent responds:
I think that's one of the reasons, though not the only one. The legal reason is kind of weak here in the bay area, though. While the law enforcement community is going after street walkers and AMPs, in SF they are mostly leaving strip clubs and independent escorts alone (and note escorts go all the way to FS, and often advertise blatantly). It's extraordinarily unlikely an independent pro domme, quietly doing HJ on the side, would get targeted. No guarantees, of course, but at this point I don't think it's a rational fear, in SF (understandable, but not necessarily rational).

whistle wrote:
You are primarily interested in the power imbalance, right? Now place yourself in the position of the dominant and imagine a willing female sub. Is it really at the forefront of your mind to finger her clit until she's gratified?

persistent responds:
Almost any act can be made to feel dominant, in the right context. I play mostly in my private life, and there are any number of ways where the dom might do this at the end of our play. When I'm dom, I like to make her beg me to make her come, and I might be torturing her so there's a nice pleasure/pain mix while I'm playing with her. When my partner is domme, there's a nice twist: she ends the play when *she* wants, so I usually end up begging her *not* to make me come, trying to hold back while she tortures me and also drives me further towards climax. I try to maintain control, but she always wins this one .

In either case, finishing the session by masturbating the other person can feel perfectly dominant. Frankly, I would feel I'd failed if we both *hadn't* come, and when I'm dom, I want to be in control of her orgasm, and an active part of her orgasm (she has the same feelings when she's domme).

I realize that's private-life versus going to a professional, but the point I'm making is that it is not at all difficult for the domme to perform masturbation but maintain the power relationship. And it doesn't have to be in the "forefront" of her mind -- just a continuation of her dominance, into how and when to end the session, and another way to mix pleasure and pain.

She seemed to enjoy the task, and never let it get the better of her. However, from the gleam in her eye, I suspected that she secretly fantasized neutering the less promising males in her herd. I shudder when I remember the look on her face.

I can see that in order to maintain the fantasy and psychodrama of power exchange, the provision of a release cannot be guaranteed... it must remain completely within the domme's control. On the other hand, I can see AnonMon and Stive's point as well, that the loss of sexuality in BDSM should be lamented.

Ah, this is too complicated. Let's just all get together, take our clothes off, and fuck until we drop.

JJ

I agree with the idea that our choice as consumers ends when the session begins. If you didn't like not getting your rocks off you won't return- and if your rocks are gotten off nicely you'll likely be back. I use the term "rocks off" figuratively, of course. For some guys complete denial is exactly what they're paying for. ("And don't touch yourself until our next session.. or else!")

Do I like artificial limits being imposed upon two consenting adults by silly laws? Nope. I don't love condoms either, but they're a necessary part of non-monogamous sexual contact unless you've got a death wish. In the same way I don't blame Lorrett for keeping her house the way she does, or FantasyMakers could go the way of the Golden Gypsy.

That being said, once a pro-domme knows I'm not a cop, etc, if she then rachets up the sexual component somewhat I'm more likely by far to return. Human nature, I suppose. BDSM is intensely sexual for most of us, and an imaginary no-fly zone around my penis and her vagina takes me out of the fantasy real quick.

Whistle

A few years ago, at a FBSM place, the masseuse started doing a BBHJ, and asked me to share a fantasy. She encouraged me to describe my experiences with SM. I did so, and when she heard that I had tried subbing before, and because she was actually a domme trying out FBSM as an alternate career to deal with burnout, she terminated the handjob and refused to complete the FBSM, arguing that I was a sub and should do myself and that I was beneath dignity. I had a raging hard on, but refused to jerk myself off (the house had already collected the money) so this was a ROB incident. I never went back to that establishment. She wasn't even that pretty, and I thought she turned into a total bitch. But years later, I realize that she had erected a mental boundary and limit, and that I was trapped in her complex self-esteem limit.

A second experience was also a few years ago, when the SF BDSM scene started getting moral and frigid. When I went to interview with a young pretty domme, introduced by another domme who had become a friend - we no longer wished to session together. When she asked what my expectations were, I told her my desires (standard stuff, completing with strap on and hj release, which I had experienced quite often over the years), she replied that for $300 all I could do was lick her boots. For $500, she might be willing to touch my penis, but that anything more would be out of the question, because I did not deserve it. I terminated the interview, telling her that she was not being realistic. She told me that there were plenty of "real subs" out there who would happily agree to her control. She said she got off on men not cumming, in order to please her, and you know, that's simply not what I'm looking for.

The final incident, a year or so ago, was seeing a website where a new domme was seeking subs interested in "financial domination" scenes. Where the guy would give her thousands of dollars, and she would deny him sex but tease him on. Jesus fucking christ, I thought, she's doing a Jewish American Princess fantasy. When I saw this, this was a "sell signal" on American BDSM, and I gave up on SF domme's, and started playing overseas, where dommes are a LOT more fun and playful and less hung up on sex. In Europe, FS/BDSM is quite common, and you know, it's really really more fun than in the U.S.

So yeah, I have unresolved anger at SF domme's, who I believe are fucking up the scene and are becoming the Republican moral majority of BDSM.

Oddly, Father, I feel MORE ANGRY at SF domme's, not less, after writing this.

Ladies, any of you willing to take a shot at this? I'm pretty sure that you that you have some pretty deep issues to work through.

FC

--
"All we are saying, is give sex a chance..."

If I offended anyone it was intentional and a rebuttal to what I felt was attack on me after I had written something that was actually supportive of pro dommes NOT offering sex. Now, I'm not so sure....

I would never encourage anyone into a life of ho'ing, but it there seems to be an element of hypocrisy about sex providers who don't provide sex. However, there doesn't seem to be false advertising as these places specifically say "No Sex".

What bothers me is those places that require condoms to be on the penis even though there's no contact between the provider and customer, and they DON'T mention something to this effect before starting the session and money changing hands, at least not while I was there.

Personally, I think requiring condoms for self-service is it's own kind of domination, call it "penis denial" or whatever. But a true sub is there for his mistresses pleasure not his own, so I guess it just means that I'm not a true sub. Either way, I don't think any of those dommes who require this understand how much it desensitizes and depersonalizes the experience for a male. Unfortunaley, too many PLs who spoil it for the rest of us and are like a puppy that hasn't been housebroken and can't seem to pee on the newspaper like they're supposed to.

Why does a dog like this balls? Because he can. Why are there so many pro dommes who don't provide sex? Because they don't have to. When everyone else advertizes "No Sex", why should you provide more than you have to? If all that's available are the no-sex pro dommes, then PLs will still settle for this over having no dommes at all. But if there were providers that did more than this, their phone would be ringing off the hook", as one provider stated when word got out she actually gave a client an HJ.

I would tend to agree that of all the geographical areas that have a lot of pro dommes, the SF Bay Area, ironically, seems to have the highest percentage of dommes who don't provide sex.

I think that your comment about penis denial is very important. Guys who go to domme's to get their asses whipped, probably are working out deep issues of penis/self-esteem. Sometimes you have to dig, to get at a feeling or attitude, and the emotional abuse that domme's heap on their sub's could potentially be useful to work through self-esteem issues for that sub, if treated in the right way. However, treated in the wrong way, it will lead to big problems, such as the guy who had a domme amputate his penis. I guess this is the biggest problem I have with BDSM, in that these women and men are playing with fire.

Health issues aside, I think that the way domme's treat penises and sperm - wrapping a penis in a condom and treating it like diseased appendages, emotionally denigrating a sub's sexuality, refusing to "honor the penis", and otherwise acting like a fussy cheerleader too good for you - definitely depersonalizes men and causes emotional issues to be activated.

Thanks much for seeing this and bringing it up so we can all discuss it.

Anyway, I am hoping that some domme's will be brave enough to participate in this thread, because I'm SURE there are major issues around doing BDSM work 24/7.

LAST EDITED ON 28-Jul-02 AT 11:19 PM (PDT)

Hey Big Willy,

I wouldn't pay Miss Morgaine much mind. Her answer indicates that this thread has brought up deeper issues, so she's "acting out" and hiding some anger and pain in a facade of superiority, anger and covert hostility.

Trust me on this -- this thread delves into areas that are very, very scary to those domme's who are conflicted. Once you start looking beneath the facade, the exterior of superiority usually belies a deep well of inferiority, insecurity and even self-hatred. (If you want to know self-hatred, just get to know an aging whore with sagging tits and wrinkles.)

Come on ladies, how dangerous could a little self-awareness be? Do I have to dare you to come out and talk honestly and openly about your feelings? Come on out and play with us!

Father

--
"All we are saying, is give sex a chance..."

As for the "no sex" thing:
I'm a submissive and I follow the no-sex trend. I don't do this solely for the sake of staying on the side of the law; I actually like my sexless sessions.
Firstly, nobody on this board has addressed the fact that meshing BDSM and sex together can yield undeniable intimacy and closeness. Every pro-domme and sub I know has a sincere fondness and attachment to SM and no woman can completely shut out the emotional aspects of a session. Even though I build aspects of intimacy and enjoy sharing closeness with my clients in session, by not having sex with them I reserve a part of myself. If I were to mesh the aspects of sex and SM with so many different people I would feel hollow. What could I then reserve for myself?
Also, I have been in a serious monogamous relationship for the past three years. Even if I could be okay having sex with my clients, my boyfriend wouldn't be. Certain things are more important to me than my work.
Another reason I don't have sex with my clients is because I simply don't want to. I really like most of my clients as people. Minx's list of top 10 agitations was hilarious, and I've encountered all ten, but those men aren't the norm. The norm is a really nice, sometimes funny, smart guy who knows what he likes. Contrary to the stereotype, the norm isn't even unattractive. But all of these things aren't enough to make me want to have sex with my clients. As much as I would like to deny it, I have emotions attached to sex. I don't even have one night stands.
I have a lot of fun in my sessions and I must say, even if I became uber-wealthy tomorrow I would continue taking appointments from the clients I like. I don't hate my job BECAUSE I've established parameters which define what is okay for me and what isn't. Now that I've written all of this it seems kind of silly to even be explaining myself...

As far as the condom thing ...
Some guys are really messy. If I'm tied up and blindfolded and some guy is touching himself and then touches all the paddles and then touches me, we have a sticky problem. At the end if a guy needs to take the condom off and use a towel, that's a different story, but while hands are moving from genitals to everything, I'd rather have it safe.

Thanks for listening to my dayquil diatribe and I hope I haven't offended anyone...response would be nice, Belle
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo

Hey FatherConfessor,
After I unloaded to you, I felt angry (a lot angrier than I thought I was), and now I feel much better. And more understanding and even loving to these poor misguided domme's who I believe are inadvertantly falling under the spell of John Ashcroft. (Again, I'm just teasing.)

Note to the Domme who PM(S)'ed me privately with:
"If you so lament the decline of sex from BDSM, do something about it."
Well, this is what I'm doing. I am lamenting publicly about the loss of sex in BDSM, and seeing if any domme's respond positively. Why here? Because I think it's STUPID to think we can change prostitution laws in the U.S., and realizing that, I'm putting it out there that prostitution and bondage is a fun mix. Very fun. But you just gotta wanna be a ho. Once you let go, and release the slut within, you can go to a whole new level with SM.
(I'm just kidding again! If you're no sex, please just stay that way.)

Anon

>Note to the Domme who PM(S)'ed
>me privately with:
>"If you so lament the decline
>of sex from BDSM, do
>something about it."
>Well, this is what I'm doing.
>I am lamenting publicly about
>the loss of sex in
>BDSM, and seeing if any
>domme's respond positively