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realdeal81 realdeal81 rating
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05-Jan-12, 04:56 PM (PST)
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"The history of BD-SM"
 
I was just wondering, when did B&D or S&M start? I'm guessing it probably started several centuries ago but how did it evolve into what we have today? Or when? Somehow, I just can't imagine a cowboy in the wild west days letting a woman flog him, twist his balls or piss on him.
Also, in the beginning was it just a a domme-sub situation or has there always been some type of sexual overtones even if there was no sex?

Finally, When did dominatrix clothing become popular in a session?

Or was the whole scene we know today just considered kinky in the past and was usually part of going to see a prostitute rather then being a seperate type or activity?

BTW: I know there have been masters and slaves since the beginning of time. I think the difference between then and now is they were unwilling slaves.

Now?

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GoddessAthena GoddessAthena rating
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1. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
LAST EDITED ON 05-Jan-12 AT 05:10 PM (PST)
 
The S or Sadism of S&M comes from The Marquis de Sade (1740-1814)
The M or Masochism of S&M comes from Leopold von Sacher-Masoch (27 January 1836 – 9 March 1895)

Both of these men were writers and you can read their works still today. Masoch wrote the pivotal book "Venus in Furs". I have a biography of the both of them called... The Marquis and The Chevalier by James Cleugh.

See the below links for information on both men below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marquis_de_Sade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_von_Sacher-Masoch

The Goddess Athena
~ Oh, get off it. I know you better than you know yourself. You live for bondage and discipline! Nurse Diesel in, “High Anxiety”

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submischevious
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05-Jan-12, 05:57 PM (PST)
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2. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #1
 
The Marquis de Sade and I share the same birthday (day and month, not year.)

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sfguyhere sfguyhere rating
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3. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #1
 

+1

Big Hugs,


sfguyhere

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v8nstar
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05-Jan-12, 07:39 PM (PST)
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5. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #1
 
   Thanks for the information. Enjoy the S&M.

v8nstar

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Lorrett Lorrett rating
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15. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #1
 
   That's just the terms. The practices they describe were probably alive and well in the stone age -- different critters, similar games. For research, I'd suggest looking into SM-201.org, the Wiki of alternative sexuality. For pure history, try the "Time Line of Alternative Sexuality", but for even more background and dimension, go to the "List of Lists". The last list on the List (do not attempt to say this when inebriated...big grin) is called simply "Reading List", and it's a gold mine! Among other informative authors you'll find there are Desmond Morris and Robert Ardrey -- I recommend them highly if you want to know more about how "The Way We Are" fits into "The Way The World Works".

good hunting, all.

'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

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mehnsahh
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4. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
Where did it start?

I suspect before we where cavemen.

In the old times men had several wives, and he controlled them, the man was the master of the home. Having multiple wives was only a natural thing as men simply tend to have more libido than women.

Prostitution is only the result of this, if men can only have one wife then because of the imbalance are more or less forced to get it outside of the marriage.

God's laws never included monogamy.


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realdeal81 realdeal81 rating
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6. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #4
 
Thanks for all the imput. I intend to explore the subject further. What I'm really interested in is how it become what it is today. I'm older and go back to the days of The Spectator where the dominatrix would advertise. It was Mistress Kat (Kat Sunlove) and Cleo Dubois along with a few lesser known ladies. This would be way before Fantasy Makers or The Gates. Except for being fewer ladies, the concept was pretty much the same as today. I don't know if that was the start of what it is today in the bay area or if it was one of those activities that was undereground for several years first.

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Lorrett Lorrett rating
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18. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #6
 
   LAST EDITED ON 07-Jan-12 AT 05:41 PM (PST)
 
I'm older still...fetch me my dinosaur! <g> The Spectator started as the midsection of a political tabloid, the Berkeley Barb. Mistress Kat wrote a column in it -- The Kat Box -- Cleo was involved in social BDSM, but I think she hung out her professional shingle a bit later. A number of other dominatrices of those years are still around: Devora, Thorn and Kaye Buckley come to mind.

Fantasy Makers and The Gates didn't exist by name, true, but that's misleading. The first sessions group was started by BackDrop Club in 1970 or 71 -- yeah, I was there. In 1990 the club decided to try putting sessions into a separate space. To avoid confusion, the group adopted the name Fantasy Makers. In 1995, BackDrop moved to San Francisco and started a sessions group there (on 8th Street), while the Fantasy Makers stayed in their East Bay location. Domina Sage started as a Fantasy Maker in the earlyish 90's, and started The Gates several years later.

A number of other sessions groups came from the same roots. The Shadows was started in the mid-90's; several of their staff people had been either BackDrop staff or Fantasy Makers. Bonhaven in Hayward was set up with the assistance of both organizations. The English Mistress also was once a colleague of mine, back in the dawn of time.

On the social side, a number of clubs and organizations also split from BackDrop during those years. Some were BDSM groups like Janus (1974)and Gemini (a couples-only club), others were special interest groups that used BackDrop's clubhouse(s)for their events, like ETVC (now TGSF), the Diaper Pail Fraternity (later Diaper Pail Friends), the Service of Mankind Church, and more. I call this kind of propagation a dandelion farm -- everybody casts seeds into the wind and we're all related.

Why didn't they tell me in high school that history could be so much fun?

I'm older and go back to the days of The
>Spectator where the dominatrix would advertise. It was
>Mistress Kat (Kat Sunlove) and Cleo Dubois along with a few
>lesser known ladies. This would be way before Fantasy Makers
>or The Gates.

'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

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realdeal81 realdeal81 rating
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23. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #18
 
Thanks for reminding me, The spectator at the time was a political newspaper which happened to have sexual ads. If I remember correctly, the spectator split at one point with it becoming a sex newpaper somewhat in the same style as a small west coast version of Screw magazine. there was also an asian woman who was an expert at rope bondage.

Devora still around? I sessioned with her at least 25 years ago in the south bay. I don't know if they're still around or not but I remember some of the old places such as Pier Sabler where the women would go to get their boots.

I also remember the Mitchell Brothers in the early 70's who put on some BDSM shows which at the time was the Ultra room. I remember the late Marlyn Chambers being fisted by a black woman and couldn't believe my eyes.

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HottestLatinaLover HottestLatinaLover rating
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06-Jan-12, 08:22 PM (PST)
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12. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #4
 
LAST EDITED ON 06-Jan-12 AT 08:39 PM (PST) by (moderator)
 
You really are quite a........ . Did you bother to do even a brief research of this before you just spat it out of your mouth?

So how about the single, sexy and well to do guys? Why do they pay for pussy mr. smarty pants?

Prostitution started the moment man began making tools and growing their own food... Once they had something to trade... I doubt it had anything to do with man not being able to have more than one woman. In fact men sold their women to other men for tools and food... thus pimping began.

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jimmy_gilmour jimmy_gilmour rating
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16. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #12
 
   i have even heard a theory that We evolved the ability to walk upright because it freed our arms to carry more goods to the Females..works for me

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Lorrett Lorrett rating
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19. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #12
 
   Prostitution isn't limited to food growing -- OR to people. Our cousins, the bonobos, trade sugar cane and other goodies for sex. You're right about women as a commodity, but women were stolen/sold/traded more for breeding purposes than for recreational nookie.

Interesting note: woman-as-commodity also resulted in the social rituals of "marriage". Men took women "to wife" (the root of that word is "swive") and sequestered them from other men to establish and preserve bloodlines.

Whee, this thread is FUN!

'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

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Mistress_Kalliope Mistress_Kalliope rating
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07-Jan-12, 08:16 AM (PST)
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14. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #4
 
LAST EDITED ON 07-Jan-12 AT 12:53 PM (PST)
 
While the above post by MENSA is quite simplistic, if you would like to further research the "standard narrative" and take a more complete anthropological look at it, you might try the book "Sex at Dawn". It posits some very interesting theories.

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Lorrett Lorrett rating
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17. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #4
 
   You're right. "God's laws" are expressed as working biological systems, not engraved on stones.

But don't think there's only one way. What's "right" in nature is what results in live, healthy progeny. Males of some species are wired to impregnate more than one female. If circumstances allow the young to be independent at birth, or allow a single female to protect and raise them, that dude rides into the sunset -- his job is done. If not, females may band together, and/or try to beguile Lothario to stick around and help raise the suicidally curious results of those matings. Females are programmed to choose the best specimens as sires, but that's sometimes determined by males kidnapping them and dragging them away. In some species, papa mates only once, and his lady love bites his head off. In others, only the alpha male and the alpha female in the pack do any mating at all!

Building families with multiple adults sharing the raising of the young has proven practical in many forms, and in many species. In humans, sometimes males have multiple wives, but in other circumstances a shortage of women might produce male siblings sharing a wife, and in still others both men and women merge into gene-sharing communities.

Prostitution, though, is a "play" form rather than a genetic strategy (though one can suddenly become the other in the absence of effective birth control). Its object is the physical and emotional satisfaction of sexual arousal. At its best, it can help build communication skills, boundaries and trust. At its worst, it breaks those things down, and (to add insult to injury) it can be like chop suey: half an hour later you're horny.

One more way in which function creates tools, rather than vice versa.

Question: if you were a fish, would prostitution mean you could find a RedBook ad, make a PayPal payment, and receive an e-mail telling you where the eggs were?

'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

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axis_bold_as
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05-Jan-12, 08:28 PM (PST)
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7. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
   BDSM has always been with us, and Victorian England produced some hot BDSM writing, such as A Man And A Maid.

Much of the clothing, iconography, and lifestyle that people now associate with the leather part of BDSM originated with some of the returning male soldiers from World War II who settled in San Francisco, Los Angeles, and New York. A certain number of them found they didn't fit into civilian life anymore, and recreated some of the military culture in there own homoerotic way, although most of them would never have identified as "gay".
Ironically, outlaw biker culture like the Hell's Angels had a similar origin.

There was a thriving, if secretive gay leather/BDSM scene in SF in the 50s and 60s, which crossed over into the heterosexual and lesbian culture in San Francisco in the 70's, partly through Society of Janus, one of the first BDSM organizations to welcome BDSM players of all sexual orientations.

A good reference on post-WWII history is
Leatherfolk, an anthology by Mark Thompson.

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missmeiwu
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06-Jan-12, 01:02 AM (PST)
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8. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
The origins of the words Sadism and Masochism may be from The Marquis de Sade and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch respectively, but the notion of Bondage and Discipline, Dominance and Submission, Sadism and Masochism have been around for ages prior to these two individuals. The Kama Sutra has documented various activities that would be considered in the realms of bdsm today. Self and ritual flagellation as a substitution for sex and other "ungodly urges" pre-dates both Sade and Sacher-Masoch as well. While Shibari bondage became noticeable around the same time as these two men but on the other side of the world. Harems of women were often attended to by submissive men and eunuchs with no hope for sexual interaction with the women they serve under penalty of death.

A number of dominant women of strength, power, beauty and wisdom are prevalent in mythology such as the Valkyries and Amazons. There are many female goddesses of war revered by male warriors including Athena, Marishi-Ten, Sekhmet, and Freyja. Tribes of Amazon women who capture, punish and use men as their studs and slaves are glamorized both in the past and present. The Sirens and mermaids have been fabled to charm men even to their deaths. Artemis has been known to have denied and punished more than one suitor. Daji was a well known sadist in Chinese history and folklore.

Femdoms have been fetishized long before the word "femdom" and "BDSM" existed.


Miss Mei Wu
~ I used to be Snow White, but I drifted ~

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mehnsahh
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06-Jan-12, 06:43 PM (PST)
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10. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #8
 
I think you need to get your money back on history classes.

It's a man's world lady!

I know, I know, the PC crowd is working hard to rewrite history and make it appear very different, but you know what, you cannot change the truth. And that bothers you doesn't it?

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Falstaff
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11. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #10
 
   I don't know, I have studied a lot of history and mythology and I think what she wrote is pretty much accurate.

So tell us, oh wise one, what she wrote that is incorrect.

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mehnsahh
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07-Jan-12, 10:15 PM (PST)
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21. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #11
 
Athena, Sirens?

I suppose we forgot the Tooth Fairy, 'ruler' of the teeth as another 'proof' of the dominance of women in history

Have it your way: since the beginning of time women were in charge dominating men 24/7.

Idiots will be idiots.


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paulzz paulzz rating
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22. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #21
 
   No need for any of us to be idiots about this, when it can be part of an interesting discussion.

Anthropologists have found that many societies have legends that women were in control "once upon a time". They view this as a myth not fact, but it does show how ideas of female dominance can be part of a culture.

Also notions of "dominance" by one gender or another are almost always misleading. In actual life, men and women have varying control over areas of life, depending on the specific people and situations involved. There can be some tension over this, with men (or women) having to enforce power over some area against countervailing tendencies. Witch hunts in Europe often focused on females seen as having problematic power. BDSM probably draws and plays with these tensions.

Finally, there are specific contexts in many societies where prevailing orders of power (including that between men and women) are altered or even reversed, such as during celebrations or rituals (Halloween, Mardi Gras, even Sadie Hawkins Day). BDSM draws on these traditions, and you can see elements of Dominatrix dress in Halloween garb of women as vampires, witches, etc.

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badbunny138
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06-Jan-12, 02:22 PM (PST)
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9. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
   I'm thinking sexual dominance and s/m began with the dawn of man. It's all been done before.

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oralio oralio rating
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13. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
The term S/M has been around as long as I remember.

In the late 80s early 90s, I started hearing "bondage and discipline," often generically called "bondage," by non-lifestylers.

However, I never heard "BDSM" until the 90s, when I started hearing LGBT.

Be the change
you wish to see

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paulzz paulzz rating
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20. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON 07-Jan-12 AT 07:27 PM (PST)
 
The origins of core aspects of what we now call BDSM can be found in wiring of our brain, in fact it seems to be shared with other mammals (a lot of the research has been done on mice of course).

Scientists have found a number of places where sex and aggression are "wired" together in the brain. Not surprisingly, you can find "kinky" sex with aspects of BDSM in just about every human society in every historical era known. One common pattern also is that kinky sex is often repudiated in public, even as it is practiced privately. People seem more comfortable expressing it publicly in myths and legends--Missmeiwu mentions some good examples.

I'd say more, but I don't want to get away from the main focus of this thread, which is the development of current ideas of "BDSM". Thanks to those who have provided info on this (including a great web site, mentioned by Lorrett).

Great thread!

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the_alligator_guy the_alligator_guy rating
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24. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #0
 
   The first "nationally known" domme that I encountered was Michelle Peters, when she was still in Michigan. They had a Hellfire Club and quite a scene in Ann Arbor and Detroit. I know that in the 1950's, Irving Claw and Bettie Page were a part of the scene.

I think it was in the 1960's, that a fetish club was depicted in the original Avengers series.

Going back earlier .. I would venture to guess that folks were playing with leather and crops in the 1920's .. based on a couple of scenes in the excellent HBO Boardwalk Empire series. I know that they do a great deal of research for the show .. and would not believe that they would depict the play in a manner not based on something documented or well known.

Earlier .. we hear of flogging in the brothels of the 18th and 19th centuries .. and who can forget Catherine the Great ..

I do believe that the hardwiring of many of us to associate pain and pleasure is nothing new at all. Modern methods have just made it easier for us to move into more of an S&M culture. As an example .. when I attended the first "Munch" .. held in Santa Clara at the Flames Coffee shop ... the 12 who gathered had responded to a Usenet posting on alt.sex.bondage. Thus was born a new scene tradition, right at the time (1990) of the dawn of the wider use of Internet.

Any if you remember my good friend Sarona??

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Hrtwsk1 Hrtwsk1 rating
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25. "RE: The history of BD-SM"
In response to message #24
 
   Detroit in the '50's! Those were the times. You must be as old as me.

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