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Hardballer Hardballer rating
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07-Sep-10, 09:31 AM (PST)
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"Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
 
   LAST EDITED ON 07-Sep-10 AT 09:35 AM (PST)
 
My personal and humble take is you can't stop humans from fucking. Censoring Craigslist is not going to make a ding in the worlds oldest profession.

It's not ideal, but prostitution at its private discreet best has protected families for thousands of years -- because of the lack of emotional attachment or threat to the family of the parent leaving.

Our obsolete religious values put people in conflict with their sexual nature. Unfortunately the more religion supresses it, the wierder the fearful flock get in seeking the endorphin rush of the hunt and capture, sexually speaking. Or the lies that the most "upstanding" of males tell, Priests to Cops to CEOs.

And we men tell those pragmatic lies cross-culturally and in all social classes.

For the majority of well-adjusted humans, there is a balance. We understand that sex DOES NOT equal love, and that love should guide everything we do, NOT FEAR, ignorance of biology, or repression.

The fucking will go on and on; found through internet dating sites, local news tabs as well as places like RB.

The moral question for all of us is how we promote loyal committed honest open relationships and balance them with our sexual nature in a positive and healthy way. We are a long ways away from that.

IMHO

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Durruti Durruti rating
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1. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
  

Good analysis Hardballer. The only thing I might add is that I'm not sure separating love and sex is ultimately a positive. In the society that has evolved under the hard eye of the moralists it has become a necessary good, however in a community not dominated by fear based morality love might be more reasonable and flexible in the forms it takes.

Delegitimizing the moralists is the beginning of that process imo.

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MsCHO MsCHO rating
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07-Sep-10, 11:21 AM (PST)
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2. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #1
 
   I was watching CNN last night and one of the lawyer from there said that the craigslist censored themselves not the government.

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Durruti Durruti rating
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3. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #2
 
   LAST EDITED ON 07-Sep-10 AT 11:53 AM (PST)
 
It's a lawerly response and while being to the letter correct it is none the less complete bullshit.

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macimay macimay rating
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4. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #3
 
LAST EDITED ON 07-Sep-10 AT 05:51 PM (PST)
 
They held a gun to their heads, they threatened them...in writing...many times...publicity.

Yes we all wish they could have done differently but we're not them.

They risked criminal charges in not one state but several.
Have any of you ever had to defend yourselves in a criminal proceeding in one state while defending yourself in another criminal proceeding in another state?

I know several workers, but not customers, who've had to do it. It's not easy, even when you have lots of money.


close your eyes and pretend I'm a girl.

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Durruti Durruti rating
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9. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #4
 
  
I've faced charges in more than one State at a time. I just dealt with them one at a time and let it go to warrant then returned to deal with the State that issued the warrant later on my preferred schedule.

In the State I returned to, this one, I represented myself and beat all the charges however I did do ten days for contempt of court. They installed the metal detectors at 850 Bryant because of the first part of this case. Most enjoyable arraignment I've ever been fortunate enough to attend. We precipitated a riot in the courtroom. I and others then escaped from custody during the mayhem.

I've been in the deep water. I have been while in custody offered a possibility of a life sentence in exchange for my "cooperation". You can guess the alternative. Oh, and that first State charge ended up going to the US Supreme Court before we were exonerated out of Texas's grasp.

Over 50 arrests and not a single criminal conviction here.

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macimay macimay rating
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10. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #9
 
Great, have you offered help to CL?
I'm wondering what their lawyers are telling them.
it's the media court they've been most effected by from what I can tell.
But I also know that the media court has manufactured false evidence and you know the other court will as well.

I'm wondering where groups like the ACLU or the Electronic Frontier Foundation are on this.

close your eyes and pretend I'm a girl.

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Durruti Durruti rating
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13. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #10
 
  
I don't think CL would be interested in my assistance. Balls of steel isn't a skill that can be taught or transferred easily. I think many of us would like to know what their inner decision making process was on this. It obviously affects many people here.

He folded his tent before there was any court action. Until it goes to court there is not a whole lot groups like the ACLU and EFF can do for CL.

My take on it is that this is just a fight they didn't want to take on. It was ancillary to their primary business goals and model. They were willing to resist, but not fight. I get the sense that Craig himself is not a natural fighter. His personality is more of a go along to get along type.

He might also be smart and intends to show the powers that be, he can not effectively control content on his site and it is better if it has an appropriate location on CL. As it is right this moment, my guess is that complaints are up not down due to the changes. Now provider ads are popping up all over CL. One can not choose to avoid them now. This is a response strategy that providers may enact on their own. Bring chaos to CL. Make all the users of CL long for the days of the adult services section.

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pohaku pohaku rating
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5. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON 07-Sep-10 AT 09:43 PM (PST)
 
Prostitution had survived oppression and stigmas for millennium. It does serve some mysterious but important function in human society beside some obvious ones, this is the area that haunts me most.

In traditional society when marriages were official, communal and the public institution that controlled the family lineage, estate and power, prostitution served private outlet for passion, romance and sexuality.

Indeed those women protected the family and prevented worst dishonor of adultery.

We are living in a transitional society now, all marriages are supposed to be by the partners choice and based on romance. Modern marriages added romantic and sexual relationship in addition to all the other traditional functions. The whole concept and expectations of marriage is strained.... manifesting itself in 50%+ divorce rate in the US. Perhaps it is time we question the functions of marriage itself. In many ways, and strangely, I see some elements of future models emerging within the RB hobby community.. but thats another thread.

Money made such casual relationship harmless and more equitable for unmarried women who engaged in it too. Some men and women did find business opportunities to create commodity out of this exchange. They provided place for women to live and work as well as security etc... but often those businesses exploited women. Sometimes in most unspeakable ways. But think about the history of labor.. were exploitative nature of early modern industries any different?

The real difference between sex work and other industry is that sex workers were always kept away from the public view, painted with shame and kept illegal. In other word, as long as it is kept illegal, all forms of exploitation of sex workers will continue. To me, keeping it illegal and depicting sex workers as incapacitated victims are the worst manifestation of patriarchal and chauvinistic principles.

Decriminalization and legitimacy will be the first and absolutely necessary step for the sex workers to organize and address abuses including the exploitations of youth within this industry.. with the same self determination of the coal miners, the textile workers and the steel workers in the early 20th century.


Internet made it possible for an independent sex worker to communicate with the potential clients discretely. With relatively small amount of training anyone can create website or blog and there are thousands of market places and social networking sites where women could announce their services.

There are those who just won't accept commercial sex ( I think they hate it being non-reproductive sex even more)
They can scream and yell..

But which side is fighting the losing battle?

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sexyclassyfun sexyclassyfun rating
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6. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #5
 
It's an honor to be among minds like the above posters. Poh, you are fast becoming my hero!

xoxo
Ray
I can't help it, I LIKE sex!

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macimay macimay rating
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7. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #5
 

>There are those who just won't accept commercial sex ( I
>think they hate it being non-reproductive sex even more)


They hate sex that isn't by hetro married in the missionary.

I read this article today while getting my hair done
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/07/middle-awash/shreeve-text

They speculate that the evolution of humanity might have something to do with the males walking up right in order to better carry food for the females they wanted to have sex with....

close your eyes and pretend I'm a girl.

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zoezane zoezane rating
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21. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #5
 
LAST EDITED ON 09-Sep-10 AT 01:11 PM (PST)
 
I agree. Men know where they can get laid. Some men will never have a relationship or get the kinky stuff they want. Go to a sex worker.

CL will not stop the flow.
zoe zane

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Dellsnorto Dellsnorto rating
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8. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
   "My personal and humble take is you can't stop humans from fucking."

Or from paying for it or selling it as complementary needs (and other things) arise.

"The fucking will go on and on; found through internet dating sites, local news tabs as well as places like RB."

Censor the Adult Services and Gigs sections and, like playing whack-a-mole at the arcade, they'll keep popping up elsewhere. But what they won't do is go away.

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pseeker pseeker rating
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11. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
   Marty Zweig's comments (abbreviated a bit):

If the 17 state attorneys general pressuring CraigsList have any real data connecting it with prostitution, teen sex, or sex trafficking, they’re keeping it a secret. Which means they don’t have any.

If those opposing prostitution would simply say “CraigsList shouldn’t run ads that facilitate prostitution because prostitution is against the law,” that would be honest, and even semi-reasonable.

But in America, opposing any aspect of sexual expression is typically done by painting the most grisly picture possible. And so the Myth of Massive Sex Trafficking is spreading like some evil crabgrass after spring rain.

It’s another one-sided battle in America’s War On Sex.

The Myth is fueled by TV shows like the CSI franchise and the shamelessly exploitative Nancy Grace (motto: “Little Mary’s mutilation is our bread & butter”). It’s fueled by law-enforcement officials who toss around expressions like “the increasing problem of sex trafficking” without providing any statistics. It’s fueled by non-profits who take a single sensational case—e.g., the arrest of a Boston medical student charged with murdering a woman he met on CraigsList—and claim it reflects a meaningful trend (while asking for tax dollars to fight these “trends”).

Groups like Stop Child Trafficking Now throw around wildly inflated numbers of women and girls “trafficked” by simply including all prostitutes in the category. Another statistical manipulation is including women and teens who are subject to the coercion of local gangs or racketeers. Organized crime is obviously a horrible problem, but conflating it with “human trafficking” is simply a devious ploy for public sympathy.

And then we have completely bogus numbers (bound to be reprinted endlessly)—like the Rebecca Project’s “An estimated 100,000-300,000 American children are at risk for becoming victims of commercial sexual exploitation.”

“At risk!” Not in any way harmed, just vulnerable! The technical word for this is “nonsense.”

The U.S. State Department’s own country-by-country report states that what little human trafficking there is into the U.S. is “primarily for labor;” out of the nine most common categories (which include agriculture and janitorial services), strip-club dancing is the only one related to sex.

The penetration of the internet into every aspect of American life has spawned a corresponding series of sex-related moral panics—not unlike the panics that resulted from the equal penetration of radio, comic books, and TV in their respective times.

Just two years ago we were hearing how MySpace was supposedly filled with predators, making it incredibly dangerous for kids. Then a sophisticated nationwide report documented that it isn’t a hotbed of danger after all. And yet we still hear about this alleged problem.

Last year the Big Child Sex Problem was sexting, with the allegation that predators somehow get hold of teens’ nude photos and then stalk them. Just a few months ago we started hearing about sextortion—in which evildoers use these photos to extort even more explicit photos from teens.

Of course, the goal of eliminating human trafficking is 100% worthwhile. But as with all moral crusades, there’s a temptation for action designed to make activists and the public feel safer, rather than actually accomplishing real goals. This wastes resources and simply empowers feel-gooders, hypocrites, and opportunists.

It’s comforting to identify a bogeyman—in this case CraigsList—and to focus our anxiety and anger on it. People feel especially empowered to do so under the rubric of “protecting the children.” First Amendment? Adults’ civil rights? Privacy guarantees? It’s easy to trample these under the hooves of a cavalry charge to rescue children who are “at risk.”

http://sexualintelligence.wordpress.com

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Gretchen Gretchen rating
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12. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
Thank you, everybody who is writing here. I'm glad to be on your side in the culture war.

1. Consenting
2. Adults
3. in Private

Hey, I know you might be getting tired of the historical perspective and all, but hey.

America went through this exact same thing already. The notion that hundreds of thousands of women and girls were being captured and sold into "White Slavery" got a lot of public attention and caused a panic of public attention that reached its height in 1911-1915. In the pulsing quiet of their homes, middle-class wives devoured journalistic accounts of sinister procurers armed with poisoned needles and drugged beverages. Young girls were being ruined, the headlines screamed, sold into sex slavery.

The result was mainly to sell a lot of magazines. A secondary result was to elevate the careers of a few podium-pounding politicians. And funding was created to supress the entire industry, resulting in the prosecution of many women who had been completely at-choice about their sex careers. Working up a froth of public opinion and spending a lot of public money got next to nothing in the way of actual *unwilling* women and girls. Then as now, few adult men were interested in having sex with children. And then as now, women who did the work were choosing it as the most attractive of their alternatives.

Have fun today! I know I will.

Gretchen

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tracyquen
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08-Sep-10, 02:28 PM (PST)
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14. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
   I'm a reporter for Salon.com and I'm hoping to interview you about how you are finding sex workers now that Craigslist has shut down its adult services. I'm hoping to speak to you today, if possible. You can reach me at tracy@salon.com.

Best,
Tracy

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Hardballer Hardballer rating
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15. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #14
 
   Tracy, please define "sex worker."

The boundaries are blurry, and I sure can't.

Sure is a lot of sex being sold in advertising. Are those models 'sex workers?"

How about "trophy wives" for atheletes, models in beer ads, body doubles in mainstream movies, or objectified women (or men) in relationships generally (some by choice, some not conscious)???

Is a 'Pinup Girl" a "sex worker."

How about someone who boinks a VP to get ahead at the office or Corporation???

I ask this with all seriousness.

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pohaku pohaku rating
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16. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #14
 
   LAST EDITED ON 08-Sep-10 AT 05:09 PM (PST)
 
Tracy

Please post your questions here in the Bay Lounge by starting a new topic of discussion. Many will respond.

One thing that I find little odd is that you are posting this question in this site. Isn't it like going into a coffee shop in downtown and asking people how they find coffee now that big grocery store around the corner had stopped selling coffee?

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nicefun nicefun rating
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17. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
   LAST EDITED ON 08-Sep-10 AT 11:12 PM (PST)
 
Great post on Huffington regarding Craigslist. Entitled: "How Censoring Craigslist Helps Pimps, Child Traffickers and Other Abusive Scumbags"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danah-boyd/how-censoring-craigslist-_b_706789.html


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pohaku pohaku rating
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18. "Worth posting the article"
In response to message #17
 
   nicefun thank you for the link, I posted for the typically lazy ass RB hobbysexuals.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danah-boyd/how-censoring-craigslist-_b_706789.html


How Censoring Craigslist Helps Pimps, Child Traffickers and Other Abusive Scumbags

For the last 12 years, I've dedicated immense amounts of time, money and energy to end violence against women and children. As a victim of violence myself, I'm deeply committed to destroying any institution or individual leveraging the sex-power matrix that results in child trafficking, nonconsensual prostitution, domestic violence and other abuses. If I believed that censoring Craigslist would achieve these goals, I'd be the first in line to watch them fall. But from the bottom of my soul and the depths of my intellect, I believe that the current efforts to censor Craigslist's "adult services" achieves the absolute opposite. Rather than helping those who are abused, it fundamentally helps pimps, human traffickers and others who profit off of abusing others.

On Friday, under tremendous pressure from US attorneys general and public advocacy groups, Craigslist shut down its "Adult Services" section. There is little doubt that this space has been used by people engaged in all sorts of illicit activities, many of which result in harmful abuses. But the debate that has ensued has centered on the wrong axis, pitting protecting the abused against freedom of speech. What's implied in public discourse is that protecting potential victims requires censorship; thus, anti-censorship advocates are up in arms attacking regulators for trying to curtail First Amendment rights. While I am certainly a proponent of free speech online, I find it utterly depressing that these groups fail to see how this is actually an issue of transparency, not free speech. And how this does more to hurt potential victims than help.

If you've ever met someone who is victimized through trafficking or prostitution, you'll hear a pretty harrowing story about what it means to be invisible and powerless, feeling like no one cares and no one's listening. Human trafficking and most forms of abusive prostitution exist in a black market, with corrupt intermediaries making connections and offering "protection" to those who they abuse for profit. The abused often have no recourse, either because their movements are heavily regulated (as with those trafficked) or because they're violating the law themselves (as with prostitutes).

The Internet has changed the dynamics of prostitution and trafficking, making it easier for prostitutes and traffickers to connect with clients without too many layers of intermediaries. As a result, the Internet has become an intermediary, often without the knowledge of those internet service providers (ISPs) who are the conduits. This is what makes people believe that they should go after ISPs like Craigslist. Faulty logic suggests that if Craigslist is effectively a digital pimp who's profiting off of online traffic, why shouldn't it be prosecuted as such?

The problem with this logic is that it fails to account for three important differences: 1) most ISPs have a fundamental business -- if not moral -- interest in helping protect people; 2) the visibility of illicit activities online makes it much easier to get at, and help, those who are being victimized; and 3) a one-stop-shop is more helpful for law enforcement than for criminals. In short, Craigslist is not a pimp, but a public perch from which law enforcement can watch without being seen.

1. Internet Services Providers have a fundamental business interest in helping people.

When Internet companies profit off of online traffic, they need their clients to value them and the services they provide. If companies can't be trusted -- especially when money is exchanging hands -- they lose business. This is especially true for companies that support peer-to-peer exchange of money and goods. This is what motivates services like eBay and Amazon to make it very easy for customers to get refunded when ripped off. Craigslist has made its name and business on helping people connect around services, and while there are plenty of people who use its openness to try to abuse others, Craigslist is deeply committed to reducing fraud and abuse. It's not always successful -- no company is. And the more freedom that a company affords, the more room for abuse. But what makes Craigslist especially beloved is that it is run by people who truly want to make the world a better place and who are deeply committed to a healthy civic life.

I have always been in awe of Craig Newmark, Craigslist's founder and now a "customer service rep" with the company. He's made a pretty penny off of Craigslist, so what's he doing with it? Certainly not basking in the Caribbean sun. He's dedicated his life to public service, working with organizations like Sunlight Foundation to increase government accountability and using his resources and networks to help out countless organizations like Donors Choose, Kiva, Consumer Reports and Iraq/Afghani Vets of America. This is the villain behind Craigslist trying to pimp out abused people?

Craigslist is in a tremendous position to actually work with law enforcement, both because it's in their economic interests and because the people behind it genuinely want to do good in this world. This isn't an organization dedicated to profiting off of criminals, hosting servers in corrupt political regimes to evade responsibility. This is an organization with both the incentives and interest to actually help. And they have a long track record of doing so.

2. Visibility makes it easier to help victims.

If you live a privileged life, your exposure to prostitution may be limited to made-for-TV movies and a curious dip into the red-light district of Amsterdam. You are most likely lucky enough to never have known someone who was forced into prostitution, let alone someone who was sold by or stolen from their parents as a child. Perhaps if you live in San Francisco or Las Vegas, you know a high-end escort who has freely chosen her life and works for an agency or lives in a community where she's highly supported. Truly consensual prostitutes do exist, but the vast majority of prostitution is nonconsensual, either through force or desperation. And, no matter how many hip-hop songs try to imply otherwise, the vast majority of pimps are abusive, manipulative, corrupt, addicted bastards. To be fair, I will acknowledge that these scumbags are typically from abusive environments where they too are forced into their profession through circumstances that are unimaginable to most middle class folks. But I still don't believe that this justifies their role in continuing the cycle of abuse.

Along comes the Internet, exposing you to the underbelly of the economy, making visible the sex-power industry that makes you want to vomit. Most people see such cesspools online and imagine them to be the equivalent of a crack house opening up in their gated community. Let's try a different metaphor. Why not think of it instead as a documentary movie happening in real time where you can actually do something about it?

Visibility is one of the trickiest issues in advocacy. Anyone who's worked for a nonprofit knows that getting people to care is really, really hard. Movies are made in the hopes that people will watch them and do something about the issues present. Protests and marathons are held in the hopes of bringing awareness to a topic. But there's nothing like the awareness that can happen when it's in your own backyard. And this is why advocates spend a lot of time trying to bring issues home to people.

Visibility serves many important purposes in advocacy. Not only does it motivate people to act, but it also shines a spotlight on every person involved in the issue at hand. In the case of nonconsensual prostitution and human trafficking, this means that those who are engaged in these activities aren't so deeply underground as to be invisible. They're right there. And while they feel protected by the theoretical power of anonymity and the belief that no one can physically approach and arrest them, they're leaving traces of all sorts that make them far easier to find than most underground criminals.

3. Law enforcement can make online spaces risky for criminals.

Law enforcement is always struggling to gain access to underground networks in order to go after the bastards who abuse people for profit. Underground enforcement is really difficult, and it takes a lot of time to invade a community and build enough trust to get access to information that will hopefully lead to the dens of sin. While it always looks so easy on TV, there's nothing easy or pretty about this kind of work. The Internet has given law enforcement more data than they even know what to do with, more information about more people engaged in more horrific abuses than they've ever been able to obtain through underground work. It's far too easy to mistake more data for more crime and too many aspiring governors use the increase of data to spin the public into a frenzy about the dangers of the Internet. The increased availability of data is not the problem; it's a godsend for getting at the root of the problem and actually helping people.

When law enforcement is ready to go after a criminal network, they systematically set up a sting, trying to get as many people as possible, knowing that whoever they have underground will immediately lose access the moment they act. The Internet changes this dynamic, because it's a whole lot easier to be underground online, to invade networks and build trust, to go after people one at a time, to grab victims as they're being victimized. It's a lot easier to set up stings online, posing as buyers or sellers and luring scumbags into making the wrong move. All without compromising informants.

Working with ISPs to collect data and doing systematic online stings can make an online space more dangerous for criminals than for victims because this process erodes the trust in the intermediary, the online space. Eventually, law enforcement stings will make a space uninhabitable for criminals by making it too risky for them to try to operate there. Censoring a space may hurt the ISP but it does absolutely nothing to hurt the criminals. Making a space uninhabitable by making it risky for criminals to operate there -- and publicizing it -- is far more effective. This, by the way, is the core lesson that Giuliani's crew learned in New York. The problem with this plan is that it requires funding law enforcement.

4. Using the Internet to combat the sex-power industry

It makes me scream when I think of how many resources have been used attempting to censor Craigslist instead of leveraging it as a space for effective law enforcement. During the height of the moral panic over sexual predators on MySpace, I had the fortune of spending a lot of time with a few FBI folks and talking to a whole lot of local law enforcement. I learned a scary reality about criminal activity online. Folks in law enforcement know about a lot more criminal activity than they have the time to pursue. Sure, they focus on the big players, going after the massive collectors of child pornography who are most likely to be sex offenders than spending time on the small-time abusers. But it was the medium-time criminals that gnawed at them. They were desperate for more resources so that they could train more law enforcers, pursue more cases, and help more victims. The Internet had made it a lot easier for them to find criminals, but that didn't make their jobs any easier because they were now aware of how many more victims they were unable to help. Most law enforcement in this area are really there because they want to help people and it kills them when they can't help everyone.

There's a lot more political gain to be had demonizing profitable companies than demanding more money be spent (and thus, more taxes be raised) supporting the work that law enforcement does. Taking something that is visible and making it invisible makes a politician look good, even if it does absolutely nothing to help the victims who are harmed. It creates the illusion of safety, while signaling to pimps, traffickers, and other scumbags that their businesses are perfectly safe as long as they stay invisible. Sure, many of these scumbags have an incentive to be as visible as possible to reach as many possible clients as possible, and so they will move on and invade a new service where they can reach clients. And they'll make that ISP's life hell by putting them in the spotlight. And maybe they'll choose an offshore one that American law enforcement can do nothing about. Censorship online is nothing more than whack-a-mole, pushing the issue elsewhere or more underground.

Censoring Craigslist will do absolutely nothing to help those being victimized, but it will do a lot to help those profiting off of victimization. Censoring Craigslist will also create new jobs for pimps and other corrupt intermediaries, since it'll temporarily make it a whole lot harder for individual scumbags to find clients. This will be particularly devastating for the low-end prostitutes who were using Craigslist to escape violent pimps. Keep in mind that occasionally getting beaten up by a scary john is often a whole lot more desirable for many than the regular physical, psychological, and economic abuse they receive from their pimps. So while it'll make it temporarily harder for clients to get access to abusive services, nothing good will come out of it in the long run.

If you want to end human trafficking, if you want to combat nonconsensual prostitution, if you care about the victims of the sex-power industry, don't cheer Craigslist's censorship. This did nothing to combat the cycle of abuse. What we desperately need are more resources for law enforcement to leverage the visibility of the Internet to go after the scumbags who abuse. What we desperately need are for sites like Craigslist to be encouraged to work with law enforcement and help create channels to actually help victims. What we need are innovative citizens who leverage new opportunities to devise new ways of countering abusive industries. We need to take this moment of visibility and embrace it, leverage it to create change, leverage it to help those who are victimized and lack the infrastructure to get help. What you see online should haunt you. But it should drive you to address the core problem by finding and helping victims, not looking for new ways to blindfold yourself. Please, I beg you, don't close your eyes. We need you.

(My views on this matter do not necessarily represent the views of any institution with which I'm affiliated, including my employer Microsoft Research, the MacArthur Foundation, and my research affiliation with Harvard's Berkman Center which includes Craig Newmark as one of its supporters.)

Follow Danah Boyd on Twitter: www.twitter.com/@zephoria

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macimay macimay rating
Charter Member
2042 posts, 32 feedbacks, 51 points
09-Sep-10, 08:32 AM (PST)
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19. "RE: Worth posting the article"
In response to message #18
 
LAST EDITED ON 09-Sep-10 AT 08:35 AM (PST)
 
I thought this article was crap...oh look ma we've been renamed...again

'sex-power industry'


Renaming us is what the bosses do.

And they're calling for more LE, what a joke! That's all we need.

"law enforcement to leverage the visibility of the Internet"

Right, like LE could do that.

LE are incompetent lazy ass idiots who don't give a rats ass about us or anyone else who are being abuses!

This author misses an important fact..

New Flash, Its LE who does most of the abusing!
Shit and she's calling for more of that? What a fucking ..dumbass

It was CL who made us visible...and now we're hiding in other sections...again...

close your eyes and pretend I'm a girl.

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Gretchen Gretchen rating
Charter Member
3385 posts, 63 feedbacks, 120 points
09-Sep-10, 09:07 AM (PST)
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20. "RE: Worth posting the article"
In response to message #19
 
I thought the article was excellent even though I disagree with the conclusion.

The point that law enforcement would need even more money than it is already given, in order to be effective against sex trade, might give fuel to decrim efforts. Since public money is very limited now, all areas of government are trying so hard to cut back on their spending, and public opinion about more spending in any area is saying no.

I wish CL had had a spokesperson who could have said these things on camera, someone with some presence of mind and some eloquence. That might have been able to suspend public opinion above the moral panic it's in now and turn it toward actually thinking things through a little bit.

This industry badly needs some social scientists to really study it as it is, and take a clear cold eye. These emo types are taking over the arguement, making up their own facts, putting their fictions into imaginary charts and graphs, and using that to get public opinion all excited about "horrors" that barely exist. We need a team of economists in here to do some real research that just wants to learn the reality without any moral ax to grind.

While I'm dreaming THAT might happen, as if it were possible, LOL, I also dream that someone who knows some history might get a microphone shoved in their face, so they can describe how America has been thorugh all this before.

Now I'm going back to sleep to dream some more about my perfect world.

Gretchen

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Hardballer Hardballer rating
Charter Member
10722 posts, 102 feedbacks, 187 points
12-Sep-10, 09:20 AM (PST)
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22. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #0
 
   What a fantastic, diverse group of people with thoughtful perspectives here.

This is SFRedbook at its best.

Proud to be (virtually) associated with ya!!!

We shall overcome.................


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Herb408 Herb408 rating
Member since 31-Jul-06
3632 posts, 37 feedbacks, 60 points
13-Sep-10, 02:26 PM (PST)
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23. "RE: Beyond Craigslist -- Prostitution and society"
In response to message #22
 
   >What a fantastic, diverse group of people with thoughtful
>perspectives here.
>
>This is SFRedbook at its best.
>
>Proud to be (virtually) associated with ya!!!
>

Ditto.
But what a big tent RB is, embracing evolved discussions like this one, as well as neanderthal postings in other places.

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